Pages

Jump to bottom

10 comments

1 researchok  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 6:57:00am

I need the Physics for Dummies version.

2 Bob Dillon  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 8:55:18am

re: #1 researchok

Some particle may have been caught speeding. The cops are meeting to see if they can validate the accuracy of the radar gun or start rewriting some laws that have been on the books for quite a while.

3 Charles Johnson  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:17:13am

I'm extremely skeptical about this report. Almost certainly, it's going to be debunked as a measurement error, or some other problem.

4 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 10:46:46am

re: #3 Charles

I'm extremely skeptical about this report. Almost certainly, it's going to be debunked as a measurement error, or some other problem.

Agreed. I find these people to be very credible and honest as they admit they expect their findings may not hold up. Solid honest scientific process underway.

"" “When an experiment finds an apparently unbelievable result and can find no artefact of the measurement to account for it, it’s normal procedure to invite broader scrutiny, and this is exactly what the OPERA collaboration is doing, it’s good scientific practice,” said CERN Research Director Sergio Bertolucci. “If this measurement is confirmed, it might change our view of physics, but we need to be sure that there are no other, more mundane, explanations. That will require independent measurements.”""

5 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:19:39am

re: #3 Charles

I've been pouring through the paper from Archiv-x. It is an honest paper. They had their stuff right as far as they could tell, before they released it. This is not hack work. That said, there are a lot of pieces to this measurement that invite (and in this case demand) very great scrutiny.

The short form of it is:

Neutrinos are produced by particle collisions at CERN in a way that points them in the direction of the OPERA facility some 730 km away. Those particle collisions produce more than just neutrinos. At the same instant the neutrinos are created, other are particles created with them. Ironically, this would not happen if relativity were not true. They smack into detectors at the CERN facility. This gives a time of birth for the neutrinos. Using GPS and atomic clocks time is synchronized with the neutrino detectors at OPERA. From looking at the clocks, there is a measurement of flight time.

A very careful program was undertaken to get as accurate as possible a measure of the detectors' distance from CERN at OPERA.

If you have the distance and the time of flight, you divide and get the speed.

The neutrinos fly through the Earth's crust. Since only interact through the weak force, they rarely interact at all. Vast numbers of them from the sun and astronomical sources are going through you right now. Since they don't interact, they pass right through.

There are a number of places to look more closely.

1. Are these really the neutrinos they are looking for? A lot of neutrinos come out of CERN. This experiment demands knowing very well that a given neutrino born at CERN was the same one that came down range to OPERA and that OPERA was not looking at a neutrino born earlier. That is an issue to be explored by going into the bowels of OPERA's detectors, computer code and electronics.

2. Are there any systematic delays in the electronics that the researchers missed? If the time measurement is off by even a little this result is off. The people at OPERA certainly looked very hard to find such errors and report a systematic errors that are small compared to their findings. It is perfectly possible for very good scientists to do very good work and still miss something honestly.

I personally think that the an error will be found in case one or case two.

3. How good really is the distance measurement? Again this is something that will have to be scrutinized.

4. Perversely, and I think that it is likely the GPS and distance measurement people accounted for it, but perversely, are their time measurements sufficiently accurately taking General Relativistic effects from the Earth's gravitational fields into account? GR predicts that gravitational fields will effect time measurements. For a mass the size of the Earth the effect is very small, but these are very precision measurements. It would be charming if it was Einstein himself reaching from the grave to kill this.

There is going to be a very careful look of every aspect of the experiment by the larger particle experiment community.

Back in the day I worked particle theory. I was never a particle experiment guy, and there is an awful lot to know (as in an experimental particle Ph.D's worth) before one can meaningfully comment in more detail about how to make sure the particle experiment guys did this right. I don't know nearly enough about the intricate details of their detectors, their code or their methodology to really comment on what might have gone wrong in any more detail than in the broad strokes I have already written.

I am very confident from the overwhelming strength of relativity working everywhere else (and being part of how we know neutrinos are produced in the first place) that there will be a systematic error found in the experiment. Relativity is so strongly verified by so many other things that I believe the proper question is not "did relativity go wrong", but rather, how can we make even better neutrino experiment?

6 researchok  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:31:42am

re: #5 LudwigVanQuixote

LVQ: What are the implications (real world) if these findings are correct?

How wide will the ripple effect be?

7 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 11:54:07am

re: #6 researchok

LVQ: What are the implications (real world) if these findings are correct?

How wide will the ripple effect be?

Real world, it would mean that somewhere at the energies of the CERN neutrinos some symmetry got broken in a very elusive way. Your electric power would not work if relativity was wrong, so relativity itself is not going to be threatened.

With that symmetry breaking, there would be corrections to relativity at high energy, in much the same way that relativity corrects Newton at high speeds.

However, the mathematical constraints on how that could be are difficult to overstate.

So real world, if true, there will be a boom in theory that could lead to Lord knows what. But I doubt it will bear out.

8 researchok  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 12:06:27pm

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

Real world, it would mean that somewhere at the energies of the CERN neutrinos some symmetry got broken in a very elusive way. Your electric power would not work if relativity was wrong, so relativity itself is not going to be threatened.

With that symmetry breaking, there would be corrections to relativity at high energy, in much the same way that relativity corrects Newton at high speeds.

However, the mathematical constraints on how that could be are difficult to overstate.

So real world, if true, there will be a boom in theory that could lead to Lord knows what. But I doubt it will bear out.

Thanks, LVQ.

Man, I wish I had you for freshman/sophomore physics.

Those courses just about killed me.

9 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 1:37:22pm

re: #5 LudwigVanQuixote

They smack into detectors at the CERN facility. This gives a time of birth for the neutrinos.

Are the neutrinos detected directly at CERN, or are they detecting the other daughter particles from the same collision that produced that neutrino?

10 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Sep 25, 2011 12:35:55pm

re: #9 goddamnedfrank

When the neutrinos are created at CERN, other particles are created with them at the same instant. Those other particles are detected at CERN to give a time of birth for the neutrinos.


This page has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Good Liars at Miami Trump Rally [VIDEO] Jason and Davram talk with Trump supporters about art, Mike Lindell, who is really president and more! SUPPORT US: herohero.co SEE THE GOOD LIARS LIVE!LOS ANGELES, CA squadup.com SUBSCRIBE TO OUR AUDIO PODCAST:Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.comSpotify: open.spotify.comJoin this channel to ...
teleskiguy
3 weeks ago
Views: 793 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0